Welcome to Part 2 of the dating debate between my friends Leo and Jack.
I'm gonna go grab a hot dog and a giant foam finger while these guys wrap this beast up with their closing arguments...
On the side lines,
So@24
* * *
Leo
I feel like it doesn't take much to get an decent idea of someone's personality. In a remarkably short period of time, you get the feel for their humor, intelligence, manner, etc. From that one encounter you can extrapolate where they lie on your own personal rubric. This is the founding principle of speed-dating: 1 minute per person, high-turnover, maximized results. Also the basis for Malcolm Gladwell's "Blink".
If we're talking about some cute girl I have never spoken to, exchanged a glance with, or otherwise interacted, then yes, there's no way to know if she's the lady of my proverbial dreams. However, asking someone with whom we've never interacted on a date never happens.
You're introduced, you engage in conversation, even strike up a tentative friendship. It can be hours or weeks before a date is proposed. Now, what if you got the impression that hey, while this girl is fun, cool, etc.,there was something just not... there. Call it what you will--spark, chemistry, whatever. For me, if it's not there, I forgo the date. That may be presumptuous, but I haven't proven myself wrong.
Basically, I know what I want. Or more accurately: when I find what I want, I know it. It hits me like a ton of bricks. Until then, dates are superfluous. Simply put--it's spending time, money, and energy finding out something I already knew. And I should add, wasting the girl's time, energy, and money as well.
Regarding converting a girl who's a friend to an NSA* partner - It's true that NSA sex via drunken drunkery is dying off at this age. Yes, one must change with the times, and yes, I'd rather be having drunkery sex with a girlfriend. However, I would rather not have sex than involve myself in a dating situation where I know I'm not into a girl, and yet in order to bone, I'm going through the motions of dating. That'd be disingenuous, and it can lead to sticky situations, especially when it becomes necessary to extricate yourself from it.
And that's the Leo Way--there's a cute girl I'm attracted to but not totally sold on, we become friends, there's some sexual tension, and before it's acted on, I make it clear beforehand it is what it is--physical fun. Often a girl just wants to get hers, and we have a mutual agreement. If they want more than just physical, then the brakes go on (delicately), thereby avoiding a very sticky situation down the road and remaining decent friends.
This is often not the case with a dating situation--it ends, the friendship ends. I'd rather preserve the friendship and lose the sex, instead of lose the sex and the friendship along with it.
Jack
It occurs to me that it's going to be impossible to prove absolute "right" vs. wrong in what is essentially I suppose a matter of opinion.
So I'll reiterate that you are of course entitled to your point of view, but I will say also, that I think this is a good recipe for sitting out a lot of what might be very pleasurable experiences in your life on a principle that seems to assume dating is necessarily this all-serious means to the end of finding "the one."
Dating, I think, life, if we're getting deep about it, isn't about the end result: you're gonna get married just like you're someday gonna die, but rather the experience you have on the way there is what matters. I'd also point out that this mindset you're trying to sell me as selectivity is one seemingly based upon really jaded assumptions about something (dating) that is ultimately supposed to be fun. It isn't obvious to me how when given the alternative choice, one would choose to see such a subjective (and again, potentially enjoyable) thing as negative.
Now, that said, I think you've gotta do what you feel is right and at the end of the day there's a fundamental flaw in me trying to tell you how you "should" feel about dating. And really I don't think you all the way believe what you're defending anyway, nor are you (or I for that matter) here with a willingness to have your opinion changed, so it's a bit of a moot point.
I think like me, you enjoy the challenge of trying to justify your point of view and you're intelligent enough that you could probably just as ably surround whichever other side of the debate you were assigned. So there's my big cop-out ending. BUT I'd be willing to bet that if you took the next three potential dates in front of you, you'd be a happier man for the trouble.
So I'll reiterate that you are of course entitled to your point of view, but I will say also, that I think this is a good recipe for sitting out a lot of what might be very pleasurable experiences in your life on a principle that seems to assume dating is necessarily this all-serious means to the end of finding "the one."
Dating, I think, life, if we're getting deep about it, isn't about the end result: you're gonna get married just like you're someday gonna die, but rather the experience you have on the way there is what matters. I'd also point out that this mindset you're trying to sell me as selectivity is one seemingly based upon really jaded assumptions about something (dating) that is ultimately supposed to be fun. It isn't obvious to me how when given the alternative choice, one would choose to see such a subjective (and again, potentially enjoyable) thing as negative.
I think like me, you enjoy the challenge of trying to justify your point of view and you're intelligent enough that you could probably just as ably surround whichever other side of the debate you were assigned. So there's my big cop-out ending. BUT I'd be willing to bet that if you took the next three potential dates in front of you, you'd be a happier man for the trouble.
Leo
Valid points and yes, this is undeniably a matter of preference and opinion. I really don't think you'd be happy working it my way, and I wouldn't be necessarily happy working it yours. I will say this--I don't think dating is unpleasant. There were dates in college with girls other than the one I ended up with. I have dated, albeit not in a long time, and it is (you're right) a pleasant experience save for a few bad eggs. Dating is fun, sometimes a lot of fun--that I agree with.
However, pleasure is a linear scale, and the average date I'd stick around a respectable 7.6. Truth be told, I'd rather be kicking it with my fellas discussing the finer points of True Lies over beers. I've always been male-centric, I've always enjoyed the company of my nearest and dearest, and until that abates (perhaps by the arrival of a girl who wows me), it's going to take precedence of dating every time. I'm a guys guy, balls to bone. I simply enjoy you fools more.
Again, remember I'd love to date a girl who impressed me. That's exciting. Alas they don't come 'round that often (perhaps a reflection of me and my proclivities, not of the female populace).
So yes--I agree. Life isn't about the end result. Truer words have not been spoken. I'm in no rush--I'm not looking for The One.... I haven't even figured out if I want a girlfriend right now. And yes, the experience you have "on the way" is what matters, absolutely. For me though, I'd rather spend it with my closest friends than at a restaurant with someone I'm lukewarm about.
* No Strings Attached, 'member?
However, pleasure is a linear scale, and the average date I'd stick around a respectable 7.6. Truth be told, I'd rather be kicking it with my fellas discussing the finer points of True Lies over beers. I've always been male-centric, I've always enjoyed the company of my nearest and dearest, and until that abates (perhaps by the arrival of a girl who wows me), it's going to take precedence of dating every time. I'm a guys guy, balls to bone. I simply enjoy you fools more.
Again, remember I'd love to date a girl who impressed me. That's exciting. Alas they don't come 'round that often (perhaps a reflection of me and my proclivities, not of the female populace).
So yes--I agree. Life isn't about the end result. Truer words have not been spoken. I'm in no rush--I'm not looking for The One.... I haven't even figured out if I want a girlfriend right now. And yes, the experience you have "on the way" is what matters, absolutely. For me though, I'd rather spend it with my closest friends than at a restaurant with someone I'm lukewarm about.
Fin.
* No Strings Attached, 'member?
51 comments:
oh my god i want to rip leo's vest off with my teeth.
and i agree with his points, too. imho, the whole social drama of 'dating' just isn't worth it. at this point in my life, the ideal man would be a buddy who can F when it suits us, who can sit around a bottle of cheap liquor bs-ing with my friends, but who leaves me alone when we have stuff of our own to do.
i was the first commenter!? hot damn!
So, in essence they're both saying the same thing, right? About the journey being just as important as the end result? Just one is more apt to get out and try something new for the sake of it/adding more experiences to his journey, while the other is content to hang with the fellas until the "pow" moment happens/being more selective about who gets to join him every now and again in the journey. Yep, still with Jack on this one.
hmm. they both sound the same only coming from two different mouths. if i had to choose, i'd pick the JACK.of.all.trades.
xoxo
I agree with Leo. You can tell from more or less the onset whether someone will be date worthy material. There are some people who are nice but they just not great conversationalists. And honestly why would I want to send 3 - 7hours (that's how long my dates last) of my life being absolutely bored? I value my time and I would honestly rather be spending time with people who read. Altho I do have one question tho ... if Leo has female friends that are attractive and cool to hang with ... why aren't they date worthy individuals?
Jack has a good point when he says "I think this is a good recipe for sitting out a lot of what might be very pleasurable experiences in your life on a principle that seems to assume dating is necessarily this all-serious means to the end of finding 'the one.'" I'm sure Leo is perfectly content with his dating life, but I also feel like he's missing out just a bit.
Leo. Again.
He logic is flawless on this one.
Except for the "True Lies" part. I would never talk about that movie. However, I would talk about Jamie Lee having both man and women parts.
I just don't believe you can get to know anyone without a decent amount of time spent with them one on one. Call it dating or hanging out, I think without it you only get to see maybe one or two sides of someone. If you limit yourself to only seeing what you want to see, you miss out on a whole lot of goodness (and possibly ickiness, in truth).
Over all, I think most people in the dating world are jaded about dating in some way or another. I also believe that a good portion of the world believes that there is actually a perfect person out there for them, but believe me, no one is perfect. Flaws are abound in every single one of them.
I remember this time, sitting at a bar with a friend, we listened to 2 girls make a list of what they must have in a guy - all his hair, a 6 figure income, no baggage, minimum height requirements, home in certain parts of the city and so on. It's all so fake and I know for sure that those 2 girls will end up miserable in their lives filled with hoops to jump through and bars to measure against. Sure, there are some basic things we all want in someone else, but why not try something new just to see if you've been wrong all of these years or not?
Maybe we need to determine what "date" is. Because, what Leo describes as 'getting to know a girl' sounds somewhat date-like in itself.
So, really, they ARE saying the same thing.
But I still agree with Jack. I mean, dating doesn't only have to be with people who are 'perfectly wow-able'. You can date mediocre girls to get out, do something different, and find out more about what you do and don't want in that future mate. Sure, hanging with the boys is good, but eventually, that is a BAD tick on the 'date-meter' according to girls. And you're approaching that age, Leo.
Word of caution.
Besides, let's use this as a business venture to find that 'partner'. You're bound to get one good resume for every 10 you check. So get through those annoying 10 in order to find the one. Like dating. ten 'meh' dates to find a really good catch?
Again, both make good arguments. I find myself wanting to sit around and drink with all of you and just have a good time. :)
Em
I agree with Leo on the basis of preferring time with my always-entertaining friends to time on moderately-interesting dates, and being able to decide quickly if I am interested in someone or not.
That said- the whole idea NSA idea is foreign to me... I can't buy into that.
I relate more to Jack's point of view.
Okay so I'm dying to know the type of girls Leo and Jack usually go for. Or hear a description of the girls they have most enjoyed 'dating'. For some reason knowing their preferences would make the tale more complete for me.
For example, Leo's whole hanging with the guys thing, there are some girls who are okay with that. Who like that. And actually whoever he ends up with will have to be okay with him needing 'guy time' down the road. And even knowing the type of girls he is best friends with just would help me to picture his argument in action.
That being said I probably am more for the Leo camp anyway.
I agree with Leo completely!Especially the part of keeping someone as a friend instead of having the sex and the friendship because it usually never works. I am very pleased to hear that men don't just want to go around doing every woman they can, you guys are being selective (atleast you three right?)that's great.
I walk the line.
leo leo leo leo leo leo leo....
I'm the exact same way about my friends. I love them, and they have ALWAYS been more fun than any guy I've ever dated.
I really liked reading both of their perspectives on this. I think I agree with Leo though. I've given up on trying to be interested in someone. If its not there its not there, no need to waste anyone's time.
I however never manage to have NSA sex. What the eff is wrong with the world?
i see both side, though i must say i think i agree more with leo... I dont see the point in dating just to date... if there is no interest, then there is no date! It doesnt take long to know if someone has potential, you might have to date to see where it can go, but the initial attraction has to be there or to me its just a waste of time.
I couldn't agree with Leo more. We have the same exact few on dating I believe. I enjoy beers with the guys over a mediocre date with a girl I am not 100% interested in. Now, when that rare type of girl that comes along and really strikes my interest...that's when the guys ask me: "Where'd you go?".
So why do men like Leo, choose to even put theirselves in "the game" when they don't even know if having a girlfriend is something they want.
Why not just be with the boys then and keep away from the girls until he knows what he wants.
It is trickery to us girls, who see single men out and about, who talk/flirt as us out on dates and then decide either before or after sex that "yeah, I'm not ready for this".
It sucks on both sides of the field.
Also, some people have bad days and I don't know that first impressions should always be a gage for the way that you judge a woman. We are moody little creatures and love to take our bad moods out on anyone who is nearby.
Shouldn't the winner be the guy who is getting more...action?
Who's the winner, SO?
"Again, remember I'd love to date a girl who impressed me. That's exciting. Alas they don't come 'round that often (perhaps a reflection of me and my proclivities, not of the female populace)."
Oh holy thank goodness he actually said this. I think this may have been his only saving grace for me.
I mean, come on now. If you want attractive, intelligent, funny, and witty...you sure as hell aren't going to attract it with arrogant, promiscuous, and lazy.
You know what? To each his own. Whatever works for one person might not for another and I'm not one to judge.
But I just have to put my 2 cents in and say I just don't believe in this whole "the one" idea. Doesn't exist to me.
And here I thought dating was easy....
"i just don't believe you can get to know anyone without a decent amount of time spent with them one on one. call it dating or hanging out, i think without it you only get to see maybe one or two sides of someone. if you limit yourself to only seeing what you want to see, you miss out on a whole lot of goodness (and possibly ickiness, in truth)."
.. hm. can say i completely agree to this. i stupidly made the mistake of moving in with someone i "knew" after 6 weeks (ok, stop beating me down..or laughing) and now i'm living with the consequences right here in my belly. a fool i was made. i fool i am.
personally, i think dating sucks. it is like shopping around. what happened to old fashioned courting? damnit!
and again, where are all the great guys hiding?
xoxo.
Now I'm not sure who I agree with more...
But both sides were very interesting!
(And, um, I'm all about Journey... "Don't stop belieeeeeeeeeeeevin'!!" Wait, was that not the Journey we were talking about?!?)
;)
The finer parts of True Lies being Eliza Dushku and the Tia Carrere tango.
I think the obvious thing here is that the only way to settle this once and for all is for both of you to take me on a date. Maybe all three of you. Yes, I think all three definitely. Don't even question my motives, I only want answers. I swear. It will be like a romantic comedy.
And the only fine point of True Lies is the strip scene, clearly. I don't see much of a debate there.
this was awesome... i loved it...
it definitely helps reading the various conjectures of guys my age...
Even with the green bar over his face, I just have to tell you....I think I just officially added Leo to my list (see my post on To Do List...if you haven't yet.)
I'm impressed at the depth of this conversation.
ok i do have to say this time that leo is right. but it might be fun just to go on some silly group thing with a small bunch of friends, say, an amusment park. you get the fun without the date. enough said.
and i was right, leo IS looking good. yum. and guys who wear vest are totally up my alley.
I can't tell who I agree with more! I think they both make valid points and I can fall in either camp, depending on the day. Mostly, I lean toward Leo's view, though. Once I've figured out that I'm not feeling it, I'm probably not going to feel it. Sometimes I second guess myself and keep going out with the dude, especially if he's cute and a good conversationalist, but in the end, my first instinct was generally the right one. It's either there or it's not.
That said, I think Jack has a good point, too. Dating doesn't have to be about finding The One. I mean, it is in a sense, but sometimes it's just good to meet people and get some practice and learn about how other people think and behave. It can be fun and interesting, you know, when it's not making you want to gouge your eyes out with a plastic spork.
Just when I think I am on Team Jack....I agree with Leo.
Gotta say though...All this deep thought about dating is hurting my brain. UGh. And I wonder why I am single.
Ohhhh Leo, where have you been my whole life? I agree wholeheartedly with pretty much every last word written. If only I could practice what I preach! While I have the same feelings, I'm one of those morons that tends to "try" a few dates to see if it can "work". It almost never does.
(Also, "Blink" is a great book)
Hmmm... not sure which one I side with this time!
Seriously? The reason most dates end up bad-or someone ends up having relationships end is because someone "over-analyzes" the situation. I am a lot like Leo and obviously it reflects in the fact that I am single. Really if you just go the jack route here I think you're going to enjoy your (very short) life span much more. I think I just answered my own problem....damn
Point Leo.
You guys have the most beautiful eyes.
This is what I am dealing with?? When I think about the possibilities, this is what is out there. Wow.
You guys all think you know so much. Just wait until a girl comes along that actually poses an intellectual threat to your ridiculous banter, speculating about women and dating.
You haven't the slightest clue. You will all be so screwed. You will eventually have to admit, you know nothing about how we work.
B, I would advise you to ignore the advice of all your 20-something buddies who actually think they have some insight about how women work. Just trust your instincts. Its never really as complicated as it seems.
:)
Give me some of your hotdog.
I hate to admit this, but that is almost exactly like the debate a friend(a guy) and I have. I hate to admit even more, but I tend heavily towards Leo's way of thinking. Almost verbatim. I'm scurred now.
I'm curious to know who has a more positive outlook towards women?
I see where Jack is coming from, I have several guy friends who share his POV. For them, its about the journey, however, they always have the end goal of "the one" in the back of their heads. I, on the other hand, am not ready for "the one". I don't really want to deal with "the ones right now" just for the sake of the journey. If I feel like I'm pushing myself to feel something for another person, it will turn out bad. Or I'll end up being an ass because I forced myself to be something I'm not.
Ultimately, if neither feels like he's missing out on anything, why worry about how you get to the end result? We all take different paths, some of us like to meander and other's like a more direct route. I wonder who will get there first...
This is so, so unnecessary but I am going to say it anyway: Leo is so photogenic.
(Also so are you, but this isn't about you.)
A little of what both Leo and Jack said made a lot of sense. I do think that you should do what works for you, but I also feel you should try and enjoy "dating" for what it is; as a social construct, a time for intimate social interaction, and an insight into a possible significant other. I on the other hand can't wait until So@24 is able to add on to the debate; I'm sure you have insight on dating or women that Leo and Jack don't. Both Leo and Jack are well spoken and defended their points amazingly. I love a good debate that doesn't turn into an unintelligible argument. As far as NSA I've found that honestly one person always end up with attached strings, while the other person has those strings but is really good at repressing them. Sex is a powerful drug and the side effects/rates of dependency is off the scales. So to say no strings attached is truly, in my opinion, false. Somebody always leaves with something after sex, lets just hope it isn't a house in virginia. (bad joke I know) lol
Now you should do a post with what you think!
Just a stupid comment, but I like the red tie on red shirt look. Nice. And anytime you are in the frigid MN north you should definitely come party w/ me and my friends. :)
ButterflyLion -
I thought I should clear a few things up.
You advise SO to ignore us because we are so arrogant to think we have some insight into the female mind.
Let me point out to you, as you clearly missed it, that at no point in our entire discussion do we assert, imply, or even hint at knowing how girls work. Please go back and read carefully. The ONLY thing we discuss is the differing ways Jack and I operate when it comes to dating: our individual tastes, ideologies, and methods.
Our ridiculous banter, as you call it, is in fact only about us--Leo and Jack--and not about the female mind (forever a mystery to both of us). Is it such a crime to discuss our dating differences?
If there is a moment in the two posts we profess to know everything about how girls work and think, please point it out to me. Otherwise, read more carefully before shooting off at us for things we never said.
Like Leo, I'm pretty shallow and judge people within the first few minutes of meeting them. There's nothing worse than dating someone you're really not into - BUT - where you think there could be a spark there's nothing better than the first couple of dates or the games that go along with it.
A great date can be going and getting drunk with someone and hanging out as if the person were one of your buddies. And I'm not just saying that because Jack is hotter. I'm guessing Jack falls in love easier and that's why he's a bit more open-minded.
*Was that line a George Lopez reference? Because I totally read it that way in my head!*
Anyways, clearly a matter of opinion. I am a girl's girl myself, however I think when (or if) it comes to a point that Leo wants a girlfriend, he would have a better chance getting no someone before judging rather than basing it off a one minute feeling. Speed dating was designed intitially, after all, for an 8 minute date. I must side with Jack who, in my opinion, will have a lot more colorful experiences to recount and to base his final selection on.
Jesus Christo.
Please, STOP having Leo as a guest 'spewer'. He's neither a funny nor an interesting poster. He may be a good friend but no one cares about his opinions here. We only care about YOURS.
HAHA. Chill out, "Leo". :)
B, you are so not a dick like every guy in the world. Stay that way and you will be golden.
I miss this blogggg. I actually have been thinking a lot about Dating v. Hang Outs lately.
I decided I think I really hate dating random strangers. If I'm going to end up in a relationship it's more than likely going to happen with a guy I was friends with first. I remembered this post and wanted to reread it.
I said I was more for Leo's argument before. Today, I think I agree that much more strongly.
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